Posted by Buddy on February 12, 2003 at 17:58:48:
In Reply to: Re: Aggressive Saltwater Fish only Tank posted by marrone on February 11, 2003 at 18:43:25:
Well as for this last post of yours, when one takes a post from another and splits it up into sections and then they type between those lines , it is alittle confusing. But ofcouse any fish wont grow over night and besides, to simply say it that way isn`t in a professional manner.
It`s like this, when one has a tank and let say its a 55 gal, now all the fishes Viper22 want to have grows larger then the tank, and besides that, he wants very aggressive fishes, but as i said the lionfish only aggression is if a fish is smaller in size to become a meal. But to maintain 2 triggers and a grouper with a lionfish and perhaps a angelfish, be to much for that tank, god the waste along, he have to maintenance all the time to keep up, and its nonsence, if one gets this or that they will do good with it, i mean just about the smallest fish be in their if and which it every reach full size, is one the triggers and from many books i never would go by what they say to have in a 55, and of all the things, there not saying that when its full size adult, perhaps they talking when small but a 10" fish in a 55, that is crazy :((
And you did say it can be done for years with those fishes he wants to try with a 55, and i say, it wont work for long as you think, i know you has a passer for 16 years i think you said, now why it only in all that time reached a size from 5 to 6 inches? And now you say you have another and had it for 18 months and already it`s 6". Now why you think it was so that one for it`s whole life span grown to some 5 1/2" and now a new passer and in only 18 months grown to 6", My understand to this is, with the other passer you had higher nitrate levels then you do now. By science researchers it`s been proven that higher nitrates has an effect on marine animals growth rate, in other words you take a fish that would normally grow to 3 feet, and with high nitrates it reach a size of 10" to 18" depending on the nitrates in the system.
Now as for responding to others with advise, we all have different understand from what i see in your responses, and ever one or anyone can place an advise to another, thats not a problem, but when you call me by name and say that he be able to do that for years and you add what ever back ground to it , that is getting personal directly with me, if you simply just posted it without draging me along in your post, i would just come back and ask you from where you learn this that it cant work for long, but again you stated it would work for years before they out grow the 55, now honestly that just not so, two triggers with a grouper in a 55? And the other thing i advise him or her was that they shouldn`t get an angelfish , for any beginner to house an angel or butterfly fishes is more a difficult thing for any beginner ( or most beginners ) .
Now i said this before in the post before this and still you make a negative comment in this. NO! just because im an marine hobbyist for 4 1/2 decades, i don`t know everything, but im trying. Even this day i research most the time i can, even marine animals ( fishes and corals ) i won`t ever have, and for anyone person to say they know it all, that is nuts, the oceans or so vast with marine life and even to this day, they still learning of new species.And also i found some people only doing this hobby for perhaps 12 to 15 years and understands a great many things, no for even people that doing this for ten years, like even in my area i know a number them. Sorry, no you are looking in the wrong directions for what ever excuse you thinking of, and the way your presenting yourself here isn`t in a professional manner.
And every time i go over your post, it sounds so rediculess, when i mention feeding, it was with the idea you back up, a 55 with to many fishes that he or she would also end up over feeding, so please stop trying to twist things around into another veiw. And please stop going on with trying to insulting me, from this veiw in your attitude tells me your not presenting yourself in a professional manner. If you have any advise that the other should know simply post it, but don`t get personal about it, which you did :( and people that act like that isn`t grown up, so get a grip on yourself. And honestly from that, the joke is on you.
And as for covering my tanks at that time from the ice storm, with the size the tanks it wouldnt bend fessible, and besides everyone went to all the store if and when they got power back on and bought all the blankets and besides that i would needed to stitch together these because the size of the tanks. But just the same, many other down here was wipe out in the first 48 hours, this was told to me from the aquarium store, and i went thru 5 days and still came out with a 40 % survival rate, and this is within the tanks that are in my apartment, the tanks i have at my sister`s house, i have 2 generators their, but i cant have them here for it be stolen.
i believe you fed your passer high quailty foods, but still for it to grown a size so much smaller then normal, only can mean you had higher nitrates and listen, there isn`t nothing to be a shame about, many hobbyist faces higher nitrates. In my first ten years i had higher nitrates, but as it was there wasnt any where one can go to research what is best to do and all. The passer grows no smaller than 9" and as large as 14" depending on each the species.
So what you think, lets work together to help others instead of trying to insult the other.
Happy Fishing ><{{{{">
Buddy
:First of all I made a post of about fish size and what can be kept in a 55gal tank and how long before it out grows the tank. There are alot of post here saying that fish is going to grow to "x" size but that doesn't happen over night and someone if wanted can keep the fish for sometime before it out grows the tank.
:Now what about your comment to me, first you tell me that I wasn't making a comment but giving a lesson. Now your not the only person on this board, anyone else could have responded to my post not just you. Then you throw out how you have 4 1/2 decades in the hobby and just because of that everyone doens't know jack.
:Next you say this about me "See all about this so comment your making, I know about feedings and all that, why in the world you go into this anyway,you learn alittle something and want to share with others?" Like you know everyone and no one else does, what a joke.
:Next you make this comment about me "Say aren`t you the person that said i could cover my tanks at that time the ice storm that was few weeks before xmas, i can cover with blankets?" Like this was a dig at me, but what you don't say is that you asked the question what to do if you didn't have any heat or power. That was my response plus using boiling water to help keep the temp up. But just like someone else that responded to you, about no heat or power, was to have had a portable heater and a generator.
:As for my Passer it was feed a high quailty diet and the water had lower nitrates as a matter of fact the tank was setup as a reef using one of the first wetdry systms that was for sell in 1985. The reason the other Passer is larger, after such a short time, is the it's in a large tank, 260gal, as oppossed to a 75gal tank. To my point that alot of fish will grow slower in smaller tanks, a Passer is one of those fish. As a matter of fact the nitrates are higher in the 260gal as compared to the 75 gal tank. The Passer in the 75 gal tank reach almost full adult color and was the ruler of the tank.
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:: If you read things carefully, you know i say all the time that no one person has all the answears, but as i said, i`m trying to know all. For all those early years there wasn`t anyway to research, no internet or books.
:: But if you read the post, you see i also said the same thing your saying here, about the growth rate of triggers, that also the queen trigger i find to grow at a much faster rate, ofcourse the queen, i have one from the time she was 2 1/4" and by the time she reached 5" in size, she began to attack me ever time i needed to clean inside her tank.
:: Now from the way you say that, everything i post is a lesson, why in the world you have this idea you have a problem with me? you seem to have an attitude towards me for some reason. If you wish to make any corrections about anybody`s post answears to others, just do so iof you think you know differ from that, but "PLEASE", don`t get personal about it, ok?
:: And i never said everyone else is wrong and im right, you said it. And as for the blankets, i would need lots, to stitch together, so it wasn`t really an option i had, maybe the 65 gal tank, but as for the larger tanks, i only needed to fight off the cold the best way i could to save what i can. And as far as a generater, i have 2 them at my sister house for the tanks that are there, but as for the 4 with me, im in an apartment right now, and about another 4 years or so, ill have my own house and buy another 2 generaters. So as for i should had thought of it, i haved. And as for you knocking me, my 4 1/2 decades should had prepared me, it did, and i wish you would stop it with your negative attitude. In any your past posted comments towards me was always in a negative position, honestly "why is that"?
:: And as for that ice storm weeks before xmas, its the real first anything like that happen. Up in NY, i went thru some black outs from storms, but never anything like it was here at that time, so again, if any next time, I`ll be very much prepared. And that 60% lost, it was only with the tanks i had in my apartment.
:: Now, your telling me, you have a passer and only grown to 5" in 16 years, you must not be giving him his full nutristional foods it needs, and what about your nitrates? higher nitrates cause fishes not to grow to their normal size. I noticed that you had it for 16 years, and now have another and already it is as large or larger then the other you had for 16 years, that should tell you something to what im talking about.
:: And i did say that some these fishes he be able to for afew months or so, but not years when you talk about triggers and groupers in a 55 gal tank. He can get the niger trigger, he be able to keep it longer then most in a 55, i find them to be little picky.
:: Now as for your comment on what you have and years in it, it dont meed to be doing good in over 40 years, with much research and patience one can do just about anything,. And i differently understand that what works for others, it not mean it will work for all, everybody`s systems are different.
:: And you are wrong about taking up how long im in this marne hobby, and i know about the changes in equipments thru the years, all my life support equipments are up to date as of now, and yes, todays equipment are much better then 30 to 40 years ago.
:: You want to know something about that statement, one knowing more or better then one doing it for 5 or 10 years, " honestly",, NO difference if that person does their research to understand the marine animal one want`s to maintain. Matter fact, i find sometimes a person here and there that knows better in the ways to maintain their marine animals, and then others........... :((
:: Now i hope you will discontinue the negative attitude your showing with me, if you know anything you believe is a better idea from your understanding, just post it, i`ll read it and if so it is better i`ll agree as such, but no attitude please. The oceans are so vast with marine life, that no one person can know it all, "NO ONE"
:: Happy Fishing ><{{{{">
:: Buddy
::
:::It funny that you say that my post was a lesson but Buddy everything that you post is a lesson!!! And just because you have 4 1/2 decades of experience doesn't mean you know everything or everyone else is wrong and your right all the time.
:::Getting back to the blankets at x-mas well that was an answer to your question what to do when you don't have any power. I also said to boil your saltwater and make hot water changes. But since you have 4 1/2 decades of experience you should have been prepared with a generator and portable heaters, like so many other people where and they came out ok when they lost power from the storm. Plus you also stated that you had black-outs in the past well you should have been prepared from past experience, I guess your 4 1/2 decades of experience didn't help you.
:::Now getting on to fish size:
:::1. I stated that large Angels shouldn't be kept in a 55 gal tank. Passer Angel will stay small around 4"-6" if kept in a small tank. I had a Passer Angel, from a Juv., in a 75gal tank and it lived for 16 years and reached about 5" or so with almost full adult coloration. Now I have another Passer in a 260gal tank and it's already about 6" after about 1 1/2 years, the first year was in a 55 gal tank before I moved it to a 260 gal. Passers are one of the larger Angels that can be kept in a smaller tank for a longer period.
:::2. I also stated that Grouper will out grow a 55 gal tank very fast if feed regular. Small Grouper can be kept in a 55 gall tank with other fish as long as the other fish are large and tough. But yes groupers are territorial and even in a larger tank a grouper will try to eat every fish in the tank and will attack other fish over territories. I have seen this in tanks ranging from 125 gal to 2000 gal. Actually the larger the tank the more territorial the grouper becomes.
:::3. Triggers come around in smaller sizes all the time ranging from 1"-2". Yes in a 55 gal tank 2 triggers, with all those other fish, isn't recommended and will lead to lost of fish. Queen Triggers grow very fast and very large but Clowns, Undulatus and Humhua grow slower and if gotten smaller can be kept in a 55gal tank very easy for a 1 year or so.
:::Once a fish becomes to large the can either be traded in or a large tank can be purchased, this is how people start out and then have 2,3 or more tanks after awhile. I myself have given alot of larger fish to the NY Aquarium once they have become to large for my tanks.
:::I been in the Saltwater hobby since 1985 and kept Freshwater for 10 year before that. I current have 1-300 gal, 2-260 gal, 1-75 gal and a 35gal Hex that I use to grow fish and algae. I had a couple of other large tanks that I took down a # of years ago when I moved.
:::You see I don't have your 4 1/2 DECADES OF EXPRECIENCES but I have alot of experience in SaltWater and what I share with people is not only my past experiences but other people that I know past experiences. Also there are many ways of doing things in this hobby and what may work for you may not work for others. That doesn't make them wrong just because they don't follow what you say.
:::What I come to see from you Buddy is that if anyone doesn't agree with you then you bash them and bring up your 4 1/2 decades of exprecience. Well Buddy alot has changed in kepting saltwater fish over the years and just because you kept saltwater fish in the 60's-70's-80's-90's doesn't mean that someone that has been keeping fish for just the last 5-10 years or so doesn't know as much as you do. Just look at how far the hobby has come in just the last couple of years for reef tanks.
:::Michael
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:::: Your not just making a comment here, you are like giving a lesson. Thrust me, i need no lesson in fish size. Perhaps you should look at it in another way, why start a 55 for larger aggressive fishes when you know in few months they will be larger then the 3" you bought them? for in smaller tanks like a 55 gal, they is nowhere to swim what-so-ever. And groupers are ambushers once they claim a territory. And as for getting the trigger while just one inch, thats not seen much, some the smaller sizes is from 2 to 2 1/2". Now i have a queen trigger and she was just about 2 1/4", in ten months she`s grown to a size of 11" and today she is 19". And as for saying it be a couple of years before they growing a 55, i wouldn`t ever go by that suggestion, some triggers will go slower then others, but even in a 55, to have 2 triggers in a matter of months grow to 5", with a grouper and lionfish or angelfish is suicide. Now i have a Passer (King angelfish) and is now 12". don`t you worry, my smallest tank is my hospital tank, a 65 gal.
:::: See all about this so comment your making, i know about feedings and all that, why in the world you go into this anyway, you learn alittle something and want to share with others? I`m a marine hobbyist for 4 1/2 decades, the first 4 years was with freshwater. And it was nice of you to point out it not happen over night a species would out grow a 55, but it wont take years as you put it, not unless you get puffer`s and such, they grow much slower rate. Say aren`t you the person that said i could cover my tanks at that time the ice storm that was few weeks before xmas, i can cover with blankets? I kept on saying that my tank are to large to be able to do that. And i did after 5 days without power had a survival rate. I`m sorry to say i lost my male dragon moray eel, and as now im waiting for a new for the female dragon. In the 180 reef system i lost one my main fishes, the red sea sailfin but the chevon which costed me more lived. I mean many hobbyist were wipe out in the first two days :( after another few weeks i learn that i had a 40% survial rate in all, im talking about all 8 systems i have.
:::: But as for buying fishes that grow larger then the tank they have, as time goes bye they will learn in the matters that concerns me and this person just either learn that he or she should got larger tank, or pay the price. Now it can be done for a limited amount of time in a 55, but not for years, god no :((
:::: Well Happy Fishing all ><{{{{">
:::: Buddy
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:::::I would just like to make a comment on fish size. Most saltwater fish grow very large, even damsels get quite large when fully grown given the right size tank.
:::::Now what really is the question is how fast do they grow and how long before they out grow a tank. Trigger fish if gotten small,1"-2", and kept in a 55gal or 75gal tank can stay in that tank for a couple of years before out growing it. Smaller Angels,Pygmy, will be fine in a 55-75gal tank as would some of the med. size angels like Passer and Majestic and mayn't even out grow the tank for year if ever. Larger angels like queens or French will get large very fast and need large tanks atleast 6" long. Grouper or Snapper can be kept in a 55-75gal tank but with regular feeding will quickly out grow the tank but small one can be kept for a year or so before they out grow the tank. Tangs like the Hippo or Kole can be kept in 55-75gal tanks for years, if gotten small before out growing the tank and needing to be moved into a large tank. You can also get small eels and they will be fine in a 55-75gal tanks for quite a while before out growing it. Lion fish do grow fast and will out grow a 55-75 gal tank pretty fast.
:::::Alot of how fast a fish grows will depend on the tank size and how much and what you feed it. Also if you have gottn the fish at a small size that will play in how long the fish can be kept in smaller tanks before it out grows it. Rember the maxium size that some of these fish reach will probably never happen in your tank unless the tank is very large and even then it wouldn't happen over nite.
:::::Now of coarse the large the tank the more happier the fish is.
:::::Michael
:::::: I`ll not cover your idea within a 55, if you wan t to go with the 55 i can`t do nothing about it, but to house fishes that grow large and do you plan on changing them in for smaller when they grow? Even the smallest trigger you choose, grows just under 10", i know in one book they say a 55 is good, i wouldn`t go by that, for a 10" fish, i`ll go with no smaller for it alone a 75, better yet a 100 gal tank, i mean they need room to swim and feel happy were they are. Now the Niger grows just under 20" and in one book i heard they say a 75 gal tank for it, god thats nuts, i would go with a 240 if i was going to keep the Niger for his life span. from all the chooses you made, the only one that fits in that 55 is the snowflake, there are some small mean fishes, like a harlequin bass, it grows near to 4" .
:::::: But if you perfer the larger aggressive fishes, you will need a larger tank , i mean by most the lionfish will be already at a size if 5" to start, and the triggers will be no smaller the 3" but some them grow so fast it make you dizzy., i`ll not suggest you keep so many if it is the idea you have, if you know they are very aggressive, why then think in starting a 55? Understand something, in a closed in system , your fishes have no where to swim to for safety. and whenever you might think in housing 2 triggers in the same tank, first think carefully which two, and then get them at the same time to be place in the main tank at the same time, if one in the tank already and you try to house another later down the road, it mostly not work, and even then if you place them at the same time, be no problem while their still small but sooner or later they will grow, and one will feel its stronger to rule. Why don`t you think for that 55 like maybe clowfishes and so on? Happy Fishing
:::::: ><{{{{"> Buddy
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:::::::Well thats fine i am taking all suggestions. Well i know i can't keep all those kinds of fish together. I was just giving a few suggestions. How much live rock would you suggest for this 55 gallon setup. My filters are going to be a Ehiem model number 2028 and a berlin hang on style protein skimmer and a Fluval 404 Power Filter. Thos are the three filters i plan to use cause i know the waste production of these fish is enormous. I don't want you to think i'm a total beginner even though this will be my fist marine tank. I have been researching marine systems for years and have finally been able to setup a nice little tank. I will be upgrading to a 180 gallon tank after a year or so. I just want to start small and then i will switch over. All the fish i am would be buying would be from Flying Fish Express. For a Lionfish i wouls probably get a small Volitan. For Eels it would be a Snowflake Moray and for Triggers i would choose out of Picasso, Niger, or Undulated. I know all the dispositions of these fishes. I just want to know what your opinion is to what i should keep in this 55 gallon system for aggressive fish. Thanks.
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